SGM Survivors

Sorry Dennis-I was getting Cornelius and Lydia mixed up-that's what I get for not opening up my bible first to confirm my poor memory


I'll re-read these 2 accounts before commenting further and edit my post.

You still haven't really interacted with my scriptures-how do you explain your position when it seems to be explicitly taught against by Jesus and several other New Testament writers?

Hi MM,

Where does Jesus or any of the NT writers speak against household salvation? And also, Jesus's ministry was focused on the Jews. He very rarely spoke to any Gentiles and he forbade the 12 to go to the Gentiles. So anything that Jesus spoke was before the cross and before the outpuring of the Holy Spirit and the formation of the New Covenant and the New Testament church.

But tell me what you are referring to anyway, and we can discuss it in context. I am enjoying talking to you and Ellie about this. It is all very interesting and fun to explore.

Hi Ellie,

Here is a list of some of the books I have about the atonement and salvation:

The Cross by Martyn Lloyd Jones
Jesus's Blood and Righteousness by Brian Vickers
The Cross of Christ by John Stott
Understanding the Atonement by John Driver
Recovering the Scandal of the Croos by Joel Green and Mark Baker
The Nature of the Atomement by Gregory Boyd, Joel Green, Bruce Reichenback and Thomas Schreiner
Christus Victor by Gustav Aulen

I love reading about what Jesus Christ did for us through His death and shed blood of the cross. Does this make me an expert or infallible? Not at all. I just wanted again to let you know that I am very well read on this, so my views are not due to a lack of study on the subject.

Don

I am glad you see the same contradiction I see. The leaders of Sovereign Grace act as if they believe in election and "sovereign grace" including limited atonement but don't want that belief to mean any of their own children have the possibility of not being saved.

This is quite a contradiction.

Hi Steve,

Excellent point! This whole doctrine of election throws a monkey wrench into a lot of their beliefs. Why worry about courting and homeschooling if your child is not one of the elect? Why waste the time bringing them up in the admonition of the Lord or draging them to church and care group? What a waste of time for all of those non elect little twirps.

As one who thinks that Scripture clearly teaches that God saves the elect, I need to jump in here. Elder requirements include faithful (sometimes mistranslated as "believing") children, and obedient children. There is no Biblical mandate for elders to have saved children.

I'm not aware of a SGM pastor having to step down because his children were unsaved. They have had to step down for their children's behavior. I'm certainly not here to defend SGM polity, but is it not correct to ask an elder to step down when he can't manage his own household?

Speaking of the apostle Jones, it seems that some guys get a pass.

Hi ISSGM,

Does the Bible anywhere teach that God saves ONLY the elect? Is it just a coincidence that most of our children love the Lord and are saved?

Sorry everyone-I didn't know that my wife was logged on, and posted under her name. She's far too kind to mock the apostle Jones.

I think.

Dennis-you threw in ONLY, I didn't. Care to rephrase your question?

Dennis-

So Jesus and his earthly ministry and teachings before the cross are not relevant to us as believers?

Weren't the first disciples instructed to teach all that Jesus had taught?
If I understand you right-the early church was obligated to teach all that Jesus taught and then tell their disciples to disregard most of it since it was taught before the cross.
I simply have a hard time swallowing on this one-I'd sooner believe in household salvation than to relegate Jesus and his words, that will never pass away, as eternal but irrelevant.

Am I misunderstanding you?

Hi IHG,

Yes, I will reword the question. Do you believe that God saves people who are not part of the elect?

Dennis, I'll make it easy for you.

The word elect is used at least 15 times in the english NT, depending on which version you read.

The Greek word we translate as elect or chosen is eklektos, which means picked out, chosen, chosen by God.

Eklektos is used 23 times in the original Greek. This is obviously no small matter that God repeatedly refers to His children as the elect.

The Scripture is clear. The burden of proof is on you my friend, to show me an example of God saving the non-elect.

Dennis, of course not.

Hi MM,

Jesus taught many things that are applicable to everyone. He also taught many things that were specific to the Jews, the Temple, the 12 Tribes, the law etc. Jesus did not reveal the full implications of His death on the cross and salvation by grace. In fact, He did not even chooseone of the 12 to be the Apostle to the Gentiles! He chose Saul of Tarsus! He cathes him up to the 3rd heaven and shows him abundant revelations that not even the 12 knew!

Every single epistle in the NT addressed to the churches is written by Paul. This is a very important distiction to know and understand.
Why did God chose Paul and not one of the 12 who had been with Jesus 24/7 for over 3yrs? Does that make any sense? It does if you understand why God chose a separate Apostle to the Gentiles.

Hi IHG,

Then why did you point out that I inserted the word 'ONLY"? I thought you were objecting to that fact.

Do you know of any Scriptures that teaches that only the elect will be saved?

Romans 11:32 says "God had shut up all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all."

Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel will be saved". Earlier Paul said that not all Israel is Israel, yet ALL Israel will be saved, not just the elect of Israel!