Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivors header image

An Interesting Quiz…


I stumbled across this quiz and thought it was interesting:

Are you “UNDER THE INFLUENCE” of

a destructive group or belief system?

Find out with this Self Quiz:

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system? Yes____No____

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong? Yes___ No___

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects? Yes___ No___

Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint? Yes___ No___

Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty? Yes___ No___

Have “your thoughts and questions” become “the enemy?” Yes___ No___

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own? Yes___ No___

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members? Yes___ No___

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior? Yes___ No___

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them? Yes___ No___

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult? Yes___ No___

Do you feel the need to leave in secret? Yes___ No___

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave? Yes___ No___

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems? Yes___ No___

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred? Yes___ No___

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty? Yes___ No___

Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite? Yes___ No___

Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology? Yes___ No___

Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs? Yes___ No___

Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group? Yes___ No___

Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest Yes___ No___

Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set? Yes___ No___

Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy? Yes___ No___

Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system? Yes___ No___

Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda? Yes___ No___

Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner? Yes___ No___

Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group? Yes___ No___

Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices? Yes___ No___

Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend? Yes___ No___

Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on special projects? Yes___ No___

Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic well-being? Yes___ No___

Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, or belief? Yes___ No___

Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control? Yes___ No___

Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group? Answer these questions:

Do you have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships? Yes___ No___

Do you have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity? Yes___ No___

Do you have difficulty making simple decisions and choices? Yes___ No___

Do you often feel depressed, anxious and nervous? Yes___ No___

Do you feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical? Yes___ No___

Do you feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult? Yes___ No___

Do you have short-term memory difficulties? Yes___ No___

Do you feel you have nothing to believe in? Yes___ No___

Do you often feel anger and rage towards the group? Yes___ No___

This quiz has no scientifically predetermined number of “yes” answers to indicate a destructive group. However, answering “yes” to any of the above questions means you may need to examine your group and its influence in your life.

An Exit Strategy - From Someone Who’s Been There


The following was posted by a reader who goes by the handle of “Flotsam and Jetsam,” in response to a question from someone who is contemplating leaving their Sovereign Grace church.  I thought it was so absolutely excellent, I wanted to bring it out of the relative obscurity of the “comments” section (from this post) and highlight it so all of you can get the chance to read and respond to it. 

I will take a moment to add a disclaimer here, however.  You might be surprised to discover that I, as moderator of this blog, typically do NOT take a stand as to whether or not someone needs to leave his or her SGM church.  Many people write to me and ask me for advice (go figure!), and whenever they raise the question of leaving, I typically try to direct them back around to discovering what the Lord, through His Spirit and His Word, might be saying to them.  The answer to the ”Should I Stay Or Should I Go?” question will be different for different individuals.  I realize that this is probably obvious to most of you.  But in case there is someone out there reading this who thinks that this blog is here to outright condemn all Sovereign Grace churches, and that I personally think everyone ought to leave, that someone would be WRONG.

OK, now that my disclaimer is out of the way, here it is, from the wise pen of “Flotsam and Jetsam”:

Kris,

Regarding your post #90, here is my firsthand experience with leaving SGM.

My wife and I were deeply involved, having served on the leadership team of a church plant for almost 8 years, and being very actively involved in SGM for another 8 years before.

I would 100% agree that your exit strategy makes leaving easy. I have seen many, many families leave SGM in the past 8 years who did exactly that. I have run into some of these people years later; they often express ‘real’ reason why they left - which almost always parallels what is expressed here.

Your 3rd point is key:

“3. Keep your expectations very low, as to the responses you’ll get from your leaders and SGM friends. I don’t mean this in a negative way, just that if you go into meetings expecting that they’ll be unhappy with you, you’ll be better prepared for such a thing to happen. If all goes well, you’ll be pleasantly surprised. Some of the worst exits have happened when people have high expectations of their leaders and then are deeply disappointed. “

That said, my exit strategy: - Should I Stay or Should I Go?

If you are married,
HUSBANDS LISTEN TO WHAT YOUR WIFE IS SAYING!!!!!!
That may take rethinking what you have learned! If I had listened carefully, and drawn out my wife’s earliest concerns, we would have probably moved on 8 years sooner, without all of the pain.

Be prepared to not be heard. Be prepared to see friendships that you thought deep evaporate into nothingness

Pray. A lot.

Identify reasons. Ask open ended questions such as “How do you view accountability between a pastor and his congregation?”, “What do you view as unacceptable roles for women?”. This will help bring clarity to what you are feeling. Develop a list. Search scriptures. Make a detailed outline. Mine looked something like this (this is the very, very short version!)

When I examine the current and future impact of remaining in this church on my family and I, it is impossible to remain. I feel this because:

- My family is not getting fed by the poor quality of most messages

- I can no longer follow your leadership because:
• You have removed yourself from accountability to those who know you best
• You have made yourself increasingly unapproachable
• You use the doctrine of indwelling sin as a weapon to attack those who are attempting to bring input to you
- As a pastor, you have failed us in terms of providing assistance with our marriage at a time when we desperately needed help.
- We are in disagreement with your definition of the role of women. In the meeting on ___ you said ____. I believe that to be an inaccurate interpretation of ______

After you have made an outline, Prepare. Prepare. Prepare. Be prepared to not be heard. As you leave, be prepared to see friendships that you thought deep evaporate into nothingness.

Pray. A lot.

By this time, you should know your reasons with crystal clarity. Remember you are not *really* married to the local church. You don’t need a seal of approval or endorsement or permission to leave. Nor do you need the leadership to acknowledge the correctness of your observations. Is there anything that would get you to stay? Decide in advance, not in the emotion of the meeting. Don’t set yourself up for being manipulated.

My hope is that you would have already made some attempts to bring your concerns and to ask questions so that you are not ‘blind sighting’ the pastor. If you are in leadership and have not done so, you should be asking yourself “why am I in leadership?” If you are increasingly at odds with the vision/doctrine of the church… you really should step down from any leadership position even if you are not at the point of leaving.

Set a meeting and pray. A lot. A Kindred Spirit, you said “You can’t imagine how skilled these men are at turning legitimate concerns around and making the person sharing or confronting feel confused and condemned.” How right you are!!! Having a detailed outline prepared in advance with much time spent in preparation will help a lot. But you need to be ready to counter any confusing and condemning statements with something like, “I’m sorry, but you are wrong.” Don’t get derailed. Don’t get angry. Don’t omit anything on your outline. Get through it.

Painful? Yes. A lot of work? YES. Worth it? You will have to answer that. For me, a person who struggles with fear of man, is easily cowed, and all too willing to take the easy road, I felt it was. I was terrified of this meeting and feared the worst. Did this meeting go well? Nope. At one point I was threatened with Church Discipline because I was not hearing what the pastor was saying! Over two hours of meeting in which I battled feeling confused, accused and condemned. But I got through every point, every issue. Did it change anything in the church? Not as far as I can tell. But I was changed. I found myself thrust into a situation where I was broken by God and rebuilt into something more than I ever thought I could be. And I discovered anew God’s mercy and grace.

Share your story here…and some info for those who use the “contact” form


Hi, everybody.

The “contact” form, which Guy so kindly installed awhile back, is great for those who would like to write me anonymously.  There’s one tiny little problem, though - apparently, there is no formal place for people to put a return email address.  So if you ask me a question via the “contact” form and you don’t think to include your own email, I have absolutely no way of writing you back. 

This morning I received a message through this “contact” thing, where a person asked me what the best way would be for her to share her SGM story.  This post is for her, and for all the rest of you who would like to tell your SGM stories.  Click on the area right below the title of this post, where it either says “no comments,” or else shows how many comments have already been left.  That will take you to where people have commented.  If you scroll to the end of the comments that have been left, there will be a place where you can add your own comment.  This is where you’d post your story.  Because there’s always the chance that your comment could fail to post, I’d recommend that you write it in a Word document and then copy and paste it over into the comment box, if it’s something you’ve had to spend some time writing.

You do NOT have to “register” to post a comment.  You do NOT have to use your real name.  I would actually recommend NOT using your real (or full) name on any blog site, purely for your own security purposes.  But, if you’re dead set on posting under your full real name, of course you’re welcome to do so.

So, either fill in the “name” blank with your real name, or else type in a “handle.”  Most people here have given themselves “handles,” or nicknames.  I think it’s helpful to everybody if you choose a handle that’s unique. 

The blank that says “website” is where you can put in your own website address, in case you yourself have a blog or site that you’d like people to be able to access.  This is purely optional, however!  Feel free to leave it blank if you don’t have your own site or if you don’t wish to link to your site from this blog.

We do ask that you provide us an email address.  But Guy and I are the only people with access to your email address - it will not appear anywhere with your comment.

Once you type your comment (story) in the “comment” box and click “submit,” your comment will go into the moderation queue, if it is the first time you’ve posted here.  Typically, either Guy or I check the moderation queue pretty frequently, and as soon as we see your comment, we’ll clear it to appear on the site.  Once you’ve had one comment approved in this manner, all future comments that you leave will appear immediately after you submit them.

I hope this is helpful! 

And to all of you who are longtime commenters here, it might be helpful to the newcomers for you to share your own stories again here, in this post.  You can either write your story again, or you can copy and paste it from wherever it appeared initially.

Interesting Observations and a Question from a New Reader


A new reader, who goes by the handle of “non-sgm believer,” posted the following comment just now.  I thought it was full of great observations and contains a question that perhaps someone out there might be able to answer better than I could.  Here it is:

Okay, I have been reading this blog and several others over the course of three days. My friend attends a church that is affiliated with SGM but supposedly not ENTIRELY SGM. They use their same statement of faith, but yet somehow they are independent. In either case, my friends description of this church has been bothering me for the past 4 years. This person has no problem with the teachings of the church but , I see red flags all over the place.

Anyway in my quest for the real truth about what is going on, I have also turned to the SGM blog because even those at SGM believe you should get the information from the source. I came across a blog called “Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor” written by none other than C.J. Mahaney. His blog is ridden with non biblical references and a complete lack of understanding about the grace of God.

First, Mahaney brings up great intellectual and pastoral MINDS and then refers to ordinary christians as “sorry” individuals compared to these great minds.

“But at times, reading these biographies is discouraging, rather than edifying, as we are reminded afresh about the difference between the great leaders in church history and our sorry selves.”

First, Mahaney is blatantly saying that if we are not “great church leaders” then we are sorry people. And if that is not what he intended he is still elevating these REGULAR MEN who, yes were gifted by God, but do not need to be worshipped.

Next as Mahaney is trying to explain that he is an average person, he cites his sinful pride and then proceeds to discourage his congregation from reading biographies because then they will not think he is so great.

“As I read their biographies I know I should be inspired, but at times I find myself increasingly discouraged (and let me be clear—this is because of my pride). Rather than filled with faith to charge into my day and prepare a sermon, care for God’s people, and preach, I feel a bit hopeless.

And while reading these biographies I also hope my church members never read these books because they could only compare me to this individual and that would prove unfavorable!”

Perhaps he did not mean this (although I am sure he did) but he is literally asking for people to not look elsewhere for information because it will change their view of the church. NOT HEALTHY

THEN the kicker–his recommendation for pastors who may be struggling with their “average gifting” IS NOT BIBLICAL

He refers them to a biography written by Don Carson about his father who also happens to be an “ordinary pastor.” Why on earth would a pastor refer other pastors to a biography as a way to clear up any prideful feelings regarding their preaching?

“What’s a pastor to do? Here is one recommendation. For pastors like myself with average gifts, Dr. Don Carson has given us a unique biography of the life and ministry of an ordinary pastor—his dad. It’s titled, Memoirs of An Ordinary Pastor: The Life and Reflections of Tom Carson (Crossway, 2008).

If you are like me, this book will provide you with an invaluable reminder of what is most important to pastoral ministry—faithfulness.

This new book will provide you with a biblical perspective if you envy those pastoring large churches…”

Wouldn’t the better biblical perspective actually be THE BIBLE??????? And if someone wants to read a biography on John Calvin rather than some random PhD’s father, shouldn’t they be allowed?? It is again, like many have said, if the books are not stamped with SGM approval than they must be the wrong books….so silly and ridiculous.

Sorry, I just had to share.

And if anyone has any information on the metro life churches sponsored by SGM that would be great.

Does involvement in SGM lead to social difficulties in other settings?


From my “in” box, shared with the author’s permission:

…I find myself feeling oddly disconnected at the church we’ve been attending.  I’m trying hard to make friends there, but the closeness is a struggle because sometimes I think I just relate to people differently.  Lately I’ve been wondering if my SG “training” has something to do with it! 

There’s something about sitting in a room full of people where everyone is confessing their sins together.  It can be really uncomfortable in one way, especially when the sin of the day is something you don’t struggle with but can’t admit it and so have to make something up or dig extra-deep for something that doesn’t really fit.  Sometimes it can also feel like a heavy weapon used against a person to make them feel so low that they won’t ask questions or think for themself.

But on the other hand, that kind of sharing of sins DOES make everyone get to know each other really fast.  The whole care group knows your struggles and weaknesses, and you will know their’s.

At the church we’ve been attending since leaving SGM, I do go to a small group.  It’s a lot different than our care group was and I struggle to feel the same about the people there.  I’m finding it very hard to feel on the same wavelength with people.  I’ve been there for about 4 months and so far I don’t have anyone I feel I can really talk to or be deep with.  There are people who say hello and make small talk each week but I’ve never gone out to lunch with anyone or shared anything deeper than chit-chat.  I would appreciate any advice that you could give.  I don’t want to post this directly to the site myself but you are free to share anything I’ve written.  Maybe someone else has been through this and can help.  Thank you.

Thoughts, anyone?

In Christ Alone…


On a daily basis, lots of REALLY GOOD stuff gets posted in the various “comments” sections around here.  When someone wrote about the crisis of faith they’re experiencing as they try to sort through all the pieces of their Sovereign Grace experience, I said,

I think the sort of spiritual abuse that is sometimes meted out by groups like SGM is particularly damaging BECAUSE they have essentially “orthodox” Christian doctrines and do hold to the truth…on paper, at least. When you have a false religion like Mormonism, it’s so much easier to come out on the other side and write the whole thing off as an invention of Joseph Smith’s twisted and self-serving imagination. Sovereign Grace does teach many of the basic truths of Christianity…it’d be SO MUCH EASIER if one did not come away from SGM having to sort through which parts of SGM’s absolutes (their implied absolutes) were false and which are still true.

That is the real danger behind so many of the cultural parts of SGM. What was meant to be helpful parenting info, for instance, somehow morphed into a churchwide regime for a production-line approach to churning out kids who were compliant and obedient. What was meant to help people parse out “Biblical” manhood and womanhood morphed into the monster of rigid and often phony adoption of silly gender-specific behaviors (i.e. household chores that are either “pink” or “blue”). What was intended as a way to respond to our Godless society’s sexual immorality morphed into the legalistic courtship system.

SGM has such problems with taking what are essentially good and honorable goals, creating formulae for implementation of those goals that work for a very specific type of family situation (i.e. the Mahaney family), and then spreading the word down through the food chain so that when it finally hits the local level, it is put into action in such a way that it has become something of an unspoken doctrine.

At practically the same time, reader and commenter “Protestant Knight” was posting the following:

I had a recent crisis of faith when I discovered -via this blog- about circumstances and conflicting accounts regarding a former pastor of mine and his church. The whole experience was dizzying, depressing, trying… you name it.

I was sluggish in my home chores, walking around in a daze punctuated by tears, grieving as if someone died… when I realized the person that was dying was me. God was helping me die to myself, and this will continue to happen, in a good way, until I fly to Him.

God was merciful, in that he revealed to me I have been worshipping man, and not Him. God was certainly there, but this was in spite of my focus on personalities, correct doctrine, biblical _____, the right books, the right music, the right… the right… the right.

All of these things are only of benefit when Christ is your Rock, your Fortress, your Center, your Pillar, your First Love. If Christ is absent, these things become chains and blocks of cement that continue to weigh you down, and drag you into a performance-centered faith that means nothing to a Holy God. They sink you in an ocean of legalistic death, where if somehow you do enough, you can crawl into heaven.

Christ imputed His righteousness on me, and that’s all I need. The only way I can relate to Christ is through grace. And grace knows nothing of chains and blocks of cement.

I always thought dying to yourself meant becoming what others think you should be… adopting their speech, their reading lists, their conferences, their endless array of “stuff.” And as John Piper said in a recent message I heard by him, “Stuff is killing us.” It made me wonder just how many in SGM truly heard this for what it was, because it goes way beyond crass materialism.

I want to reach that point where all I need in this world is my daily bread, and Him. The vocation (calling) will come, and my spouse is a gift, an evidence of his grace, a symbol of Christ and the Church’s bond… but what I need first, above everything else, above the heap of man-centered STUFF, is Him.

I am still in an SGM church. This new revelation isn’t going to affect my attendance there, but it’s good to know my attendance there counts absolute zero towards my salvation. Christ’s free gift to me… how precious it is. My desire is to preach the word to a dying world, equip the saints, and fall on my face before Him.

My encouragement to you is to simply cry out to God. He is there, and He will not turn you away. Soak up His word for a season with nobody looking over your shoulder with their clipboard. He can sponge away sin with His blood, He can reveal Himself to you, and He can be your everything. He is not looking away.

I’m sure this is not an original thought, but what immediately came to mind, after reading “Protestant Knight’s” comment, was the song In Christ Alone.  If you click on the link, it will take you to a youtube video, where you can read the lyrics and hear the song.  I know it’s a familiar one, and probably nothing new to anyone, but it blessed me anew today in light of the conversation here.

The Mahaney Ladies and Their “Truman Show”


Back when we were still thinking that SGM might just be the church for us, I stumbled across “Girl Talk,” the blog run by CJ Mahaney’s wife and daughters.  I have to confess, I was instantly transfixed.

I spent a considerable amount of time shirking my duties as a homemaker that day while perusing their musings about homemaking, courtship, “Biblical Womanhood,” and more.  Their perfectly coiffed, sparkly-eyed, BEAMING visages in the little artsy thumbnail photo at the side of their website called to me, luring me in with an unspoken promise, that if I just listened to the wisdom of their teachings, I too could have good hair, cute clothes, and a life as wonderful as theirs.

With the nagging sense that there was something just a bit creepily voyeuristic about my interest in the mundane details of their lives - I found myself clicking over to and reading with complete fascination their stories about their courtships, for instance -  I nonetheless could hardly tear myself away from my computer so that I could go start dinner. 

And I know I’m not the only one who enjoyed reading the Mahaney ladies’ blog.  Other gals at our SGM church would often mention things they’d picked up in this or that post.  Some even had their favorite daughter - some liked Janelle’s style, while some preferred Nicole’s (daughter Kristin does not appear to write for the site as much).  Still others thought that no one could top the wisdom of Carolyn herself.  My SG friends seemed to derive much encouragement from what they found there.  And when we were new to all things Sovereign Grace, I thought I did, too.  “Girl Talk” was, in fact, a major reason why I wanted to buy into the Sovereign Grace way of “doing Christianity.”  The Mahaney ladies were absolutely pristine examples of how well life could work out if you just followed CJ’s vision for “correct doctrine.”

Actually, that was probably THE major theme of the majority of their posts - the stories they shared from their lives, the sweet, cute, often chuckle-worthy musings on their daily struggles and triumphs in their faith, all seemed to come down to how happily everything eventually turned out, all because they remained true to their commitment to align their lives with the doctrines of grace, the importance of the “local church,” “Biblical Womanhood,” and submission to authority.

Back when I first stumbled on their blog, I saw absolutely nothing wrong with any of this.  I admit that I did find myself sometimes feeling rather restless and wistful, but I would never have thought my feelings were anything but a reflection of how crummy my own efforts at “Biblical Womanhood” were in comparison to theirs.  If I gave it some time, and listened to what they had to say, and applied it to my life - if I also “lived purposefully” and had “right doctrine” - then eventually I, too, would find myself on the golden path to successful Christian womanhood.  My vague unrest was merely because I hadn’t yet reached their same pinnacle of perfection.

Or so I thought.

Somewhere around the time we decided that SGM was not for us, I gave up reading “Girl Talk.”  I only have so many hours in my day to spend online, and ironically, within months of our leaving SGM, I found most of that “net surfing” time consumed by THIS blog, “sgmsurvivors.”  So I haven’t been back to read the Mahaney ladies’ life lessons in quite some time.

The other day, though, I had reason to return to their site.  An alert reader (thanks, “Work-in-Progress”!) sent me links to their latest posts, which are on the theme of teaching daughters to be homemakers.  Once again, I found myself quickly sucked in to the appeal of their ideas.  I agreed with much of what they had to say about the importance of homemaking, and I actually found myself thinking about how I could better equip my own girls with the skills they’ll eventually need years from now when they themselves are wives and mothers.

But then…well…

I also noticed this undertone to their posts, this assumption, that not only are homemaking skills important and worthy of being passed on to our daughters.  There was a bit more to their message, something practically unstated but implied, which made me come away with the impression that homemaking for them is not just about loving the home arts.  Rather, it’s that at the same time, if homemaking is to be important, that must then mean that other pursuits have to take second place or be of NO importance.

Beneath the surface of the sweet words about homemaking lies a false dilemma.

As we’ve discussed before, I believe that SGM demonstrates a genius for engineering false dilemmas.  In my analysis of the Mickey Connolly interview, I wrote about how Sovereign Grace Ministries seems to have a strong tendency to overstate a crisis and then offer up their own unique solutions and call those solutions THE “Biblical way.”  For instance, in the case of youth ministry, there was in that interview the assertion that participation in a traditional, non-parent-controlled youth group meant that “Christian parents today have abdicated their roles as their children’s primary disciplers.”  Yet as I pointed out, that is simply not the case.  Allowing one’s children to attend a 2-hour youth group meeting without their parents DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN that one is not still discipling them!

Yet to create a perceived need for SGM’s unusual approach to youth ministry - where parents attend all youth meetings alongside their kids and control most everything - SGM presents a problem (”Allowing your kids to attend youth meetings without your direct supervision means that you’re not discipling them!”) that is not really true.

SGM has also done this same “false dilemma” thing with dating.  They’ve asserted - through their promotion of Josh Harris’ I Kissed Dating Goodbye, as well as their churchwide embrace of an often rigid, legalistic courtship system - that traditional dating as we know it will always lead to sexual immorality and is not the way that God would have Christians conduct their romantic lives.  Therefore, true Christians need SGM’s solution of the courtship system.

And now I see this in the Mahaney ladies’ promotion of homemaking skills.  Like I said, I am very much FOR girls’ learning how to clean, how to cook, how to sew, how to manage a household.  I think it is important for moms to pass on these skills to their daughters.  But that does not mean that these skills must automatically take the place of anything else the daughters may wish to do.  In their use of Psalm 144:12, which they think shores up their assertion that their daughters are the “pillars that hold up the home,” the Mahaney ladies insinuate that homemaking is the primary purpose for which a woman exists.

Just how true, Biblically speaking, is this, anyway?  Particularly in light of the fact that at least some women will remain single?

Although the Mahaney ladies have attempted to discuss singleness on their blog, the truth of the matter is that they are all married.  And they all have cloyingly sweet, perfect “courtship stories” to tell, stories of how Mr. Right came along at exactly the right moment, even if they might have exhibited doubts and an occasional lack of faith.  Their underlying message is that if you just do things according to their parents’ teachings - if you follow the “Biblical Way” of parentally-controlled courtship - then you, too, will eventually get a husband.  Just hold to “sound doctrine” (in other words, whatever CJ Mahaney and the boys of the Apostolic Team decide is the “sound doctrine” du jour), and you, too, can attain their level of success and happiness.

It’s not my intention to judge the Mahaney ladies.  Not whatsoever.  But if I were to “go there” and start picking at their motives and whether or not they are aware of how they come across, I would absolutely be of the opinion that they sincerely believe their own words with every fiber of their beings.  I don’t sense any hypocrisy coming through in their posts.  I don’t think they are deliberately setting out to misguide women. I think they honestly believe that if you just have “right beliefs,” and do things “right,” it will all work out into some sort of Christianized happily ever after.

Herein lies the rub, though.

I think the Mahaney ladies are all terribly naïve.  They are not living in the real world, and they don’t even have a clue that they’re not!

Take, for instance, all of their “courtship stories,” and how they use those stories to shore up their promotion of the spiritual superiority of the courtship system. 

I would respectfully submit that - and this is not to detract one bit from any of the gals’ personal charms or attractiveness, for they all seem like women who’d have no trouble getting their fair share of male attention - had they grown up in ANY OTHER WORLD, with ANY OTHER FAMILY, with ANY OTHER MAN for their father, they likely would NEVER have ended up with the husbands they eventually did.

Each one of those ladies’ courtship stories is rife with the sense that the men those gals ended up marrying were at least as enamored with the proximity to Mahaney greatness as they were with the girls themselves.  Each one of those guys was already on the SGM leadership track.  Each one of those guys has obviously gone on to benefit, in terms of his career opportunities, by his new post-marriage family’s connections.

Please understand, I am also NOT in any way trying to imply that this is wrong, per se.  No!  I think it’s perfectly normal and should be expected, that a highly visible leader’s kids are going to benefit in many ways from his leadership position, dedication to the Lord, and so forth.  That’s actually a Biblical principle, found throughout all the Psalms that speak of the “heritage of the righteous man.”

Where I take exception to the Mahaney gals’ teachings, though (for that is indeed what their “Girl Talk” blog sets out to do - TEACH women!), is that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that their environment has helped to create their ideas of what constitutes “correct doctrine,” and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

In other words, they THINK that their “correct doctrine” is why their lives are what they are.  But I’m thinking it’s far more accurate to say that their doctrine has been shaped and validated by the lifestyle they’ve been able to lead.

I was trying to articulate this to a friend of mine, and I finally settled on an analogy to the movie The Truman Show.  How many of you remember that flick, with Jim Carey playing the character of Truman Burbank, who was raised inside a gigantic man-made bubble of a world, where from birth all his dealings were carefully orchestrated, even to the daily weather, to produce the “ultimate reality show”? 

Well, the Mahaney daughters’ lives remind me a bit of Truman Burbank’s life.  And their TEACHINGS ought to pack about as much punch as Truman’s teachings would pack, if a movie character could have a blog.

Reading “Girl Talk” is too often like if Truman Burbank would start teaching the rest of the world - the world outside the bubble created by the TV producers who, unknown to him, were manipulating the entire reality of his life.  It’d be like if he would attempt to instruct the world outside the bubble on how to have career success, for instance.  His advice would be pretty meaningless, because the rest of us, those on the outside, do not have the benefit of living inside the bubble of the manufactured “career” that was provided for Truman to “work” at.

Now imagine if the Jim Carey character were to start believing and teaching that it was his “right doctrine” that made his world what it was?  Wouldn’t that just get sillier and sillier?  Imagine if Truman Banks actually had the gall to think that somehow, his “right doctrine” had an effect on his finances, for instance. 

Can anyone else see the parallel here?

To me, that’s about how it is when the Mahaney gals insinuate again and again that their parents’ “correct doctrine” is the main thing that shaped their lives into what they are today. 

I have no doubt that the Mahaney ladies’ home was a very wholesome environment in which to grow up.  I do not question that their parents’ teachings helped them to avoid sinful choices and immorality that would have put big roadblocks in the way of the nice things that have happened to them.

But I would assert nonetheless that their present-day successful lives as financially stable stay-at-home moms with husbands ensconced in SGM pastoral positions would simply NOT have happened in the same way if CJ and Carolyn did not have dynamic, magnetic personalities and had never set themselves up as examples to emulate, strive for, and want to BECOME.

“Correct doctrine” has about as much to do with the Mahaney daughters’ ability to avoid the grueling reality of the paycheck-to-paycheck workplace (and to instead be enabled to focus solely on the “home arts”) as Truman Burbank’s relationship skills had to do with whether or not he got married.

So all their talk about “correct doctrine” makes me tired!  It sounds smug after awhile, and silly.  And it’s not even TRUE.

After all, if a doctrine is “correct” - that is, if it really IS from the Word of God and not just an invention of man - then it can be correct in all ways, for all walks of life, for everyone who earnestly puts it into action.  And with the teaching that a woman’s only fulfilling, valid role is being a homemaker - and with the implication that anything else, like going to college or pursuing a career, is just a distraction, a waste of time, quite possibly even “dishonoring to God” - we find a doctrine that simply cannot be “correct.”  It is NOT from the Bible, because it does not hold up as true and workable across the board.

I think one of the reasons that the Bible is NOT full of specific lifestyle instructions (detailed instructions on what to wear and eat, where to work, and so on) outside those meant for the Israelites is because God’s larger truths about love, righteousness, and salvation transcend whether or not a woman works outside the home, goes to college, wears pants, or manages her household’s finances.  God does not specifically spell out in Scripture that, for instance, the HUSBAND must always be the one who balances the checkbook (something that SGM has taught for years, by the way) because such a mundane detail is just not that important in the grand scheme of the Christian faith.  It’s cultural.

As are many of the “right doctrines” that the Mahaney ladies seem to teach as absolutes.  Like their assertion that training a daughter to cook and clean is the most important thing a mother can do - how would that play out in a tiny village of AIDS orphans in the heart of Africa?  If a mom is struggling simply to find food to feed her starving children, perhaps “how to beautify the home” is NOT actually what the Bible says should be EVERY woman’s top priority!  And perhaps NOT making “the home arts” her top priority in that situation would actually NOT be sinful, as is implied whenever something - like homemaking - is taught as “God’s best,” or the “wisest way.”

The ability to have time to “honor the homemaking arts” in the first place is directly tied to one’s financial status.  Let’s bring it even closer to home and take some average SGM girl, someone less well-connected, whose chances of snagging an attractive, financially solvent, eager-to-court-and-be-discipled-by-CJ-Mahaney-himself guy are basically slim to none?  Is there really a “Biblical” command for such a girl to spend all her young adult years focusing primarily on home-keeping?  Couldn’t “Biblical womanhood” for her involve going to college and acquiring some skills that she could use in the workforce until the day when such a young man DOES come her way?  Or in case such a young man NEVER shows up?

What of the wife whose husband becomes ill or dies?  By necessity, wouldn’t “Biblical womanhood” for this lady encompass taking advantage of the opportunities opened to women today and actually becoming equipped to be a breadwinner, rather than elevating cooking, cleaning, and sewing to a level that God never intended them to have?

I wonder how much harm the Mahaney ladies’ blog has done to the women who read there and come away with the impression - as I initially did - that it all comes down to “right doctrine” (that is, SGM doctrine) and nothing more…that if they just implement SGM’s teachings on “Biblical Womanhood,” they too can have glossy hair, sparkling eyes, and husbands who make enough money so they can stay home and focus on the “truly important” stuff like homemaking?

How many women are inspired by the Mahaney ladies’ teachings, are following all the SGM mandates, are doing everything correctly, and yet are still stymied by lives that will never, by any stretch of the imagination, be quite so wonderful? 

Especially because as we all know, there IS only one CJ, and the Mahaney ladies have the corner on THAT market?

I don’t know if you, Dear Reader, are one of those ladies.  I know that for a brief while, I was.  But ultimately, I have to tell you, don’t let such false teachings get you down.  The Mahaney ladies probably mean only the best and are perfectly sincere in their beliefs, but they are completely out of touch with the reality where 99% of the rest of us live.

Even in my post-SGM/post-sgmsurvivors mindset, I still can’t help but find the “Girl Talk” blog fascinating.  But it’s fascinating in a way that makes me feel like I’ve just witnessed Truman Burbank instructing people about the stock market.  Only it’s worse, in a sense, because the Truman Burbank character would never have thought to say that his advice reflected “right doctrine,” or “God’s way.” 

The producers - the real powers who controlled his life - would have distracted him and kept him from ever being so silly.

Interesting Interview With A Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastor


Alert reader “Kindred Spirit” sent me the link to an interview with a Sovereign Grace Ministries pastor (Mickey Connolly, Senior Pastor, CrossWay Community Church).  I thought it might prove an interesting read for people here.  The way I see it, Mr. Connolly makes some very revealing statements, statements that are prime examples of the methods and attitudes employed by SGM, the very methods and attitudes that have brought about websites like this very one.

The interview appears below in its entirety.  My thoughts are in blue italics.

Steve: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mickey: I’m 58 years old. Married to Jane for 36 years. Three children - two married daughters and a son in college.

I was saved when I was 28 years old. Soon felt a call to pastoral ministry. Started serving full time in 1984. Currently serve as Senior Pastor of Crossway Community Church in Charlotte, NC. We are a Sovereign Grace Church. I also continue to help lead our Parent/Youth ministry.

Steve: You mentioned Sovereign Grace Church. What encourages you most about is happening in SG churches?

Mickey: One of our goals from the very outset has been to pass on what we have learned to the next generation. I have been very encouraged to see this next generation begin to marry, have children of their own and take their place in local SGM churches serving and leading in a variety of ways.  [Kris says:  What if the next generation were NOT serving in local SGM churches?  What if instead they were active members of Po-Dunk First Baptist Church?  Would that mean that the parents had somehow failed in their job to pass on "what they've learned"?  What, exactly, have they learned? - that the Christian faith is only truly "done right" if it's done within the context of SGM?  Sure sounds like that to me!]   Through Sovereign Grace’s pastors’ college we are also seeing many young men being trained for and released in full-time ministry as church planters and local church pastors. We are in the beginning stages of many of our older senior pastors (myself included) turning over church to younger men and coming along side them to mentor them through the process. Nothing is more encouraging to me at the time than this.

Steve: Who would SG churches feel is to be the primary disciplers of children/teens?

Mickey: In a word, parents. Ephesians 6:4 is pretty clear - fathers (as the head of the household but not excluding mothers) bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. The Biblical word for children means any child still living under their parent’s roof so the parent’s responsibility as prime discipler doesn’t end at a certain age (e.g. when they go to high school or college).

[Kris says:  It would have been helpful here if Pastor Mickey had explained exactly which "Biblical word for children" he's referring to. But even if he can back up his vague statement with specifics from the Greek language, I find it interesting that - because of what I now know about SGM - Mr. Connolly is actually talking about two different things.  He uses the term "discipler," which is a good term.  But if you're involved in SGM long enough, you will be subjected to a "bait and switch" tactic.  Soon you will find that in the SGM world, "discipler" becomes synonymous with "ruler."

The reality of SGM's approach to youth is NOT really about being a discipler of one's children.  Rather, SGM has become fixated on teaching parents to CONTROL their kids - even their fully adult "kids" - with attendant punishments and consequences for parents if they are perceived to have failed at this task.  (This is evidenced by Benny Phillips' very public "season of correction" for his adult daughter's rebellion by eloping with a young man who had not been properly vetted through the courtship system...as well as Larry Tomczak's ouster...as well as SGM parents' current efforts to orchestrate their young adult "children's" lives.)

The confusion stems, I think, from viewing the whole role of "discipler" in terms of using one's parental authority to FORCE or COERCE a child into behaving like the person you think God wants him to be.

(Come to think of it, this mentality overshadows ALL of SGM, not just their views on parenting.  SGM views its pastoral leadership in this same way.  In the Sovereign Grace world, your leaders "disciple" you by coercing you into behaving the way they think a "truly biblical" Christian ought to behave.)   

And the notion that parents should ALWAYS be held accountable for the choices of their children (no matter how old said "children" are) is simply NOT in the Bible.  I can think of many instances in the Bible where "kids" still lived under their father's roof and yet were held accountable for their actions, while their parents were NOT held accountable...kids like Jacob's sons, who sold their brother Joseph into slavery. 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with parents viewing themselves as the disciplers of their children.  That's a good thing.  But for the uninitiated reader of this interview, this discussion could be very misleading, especially if one does not understand how "discipler" in the SGM world actually equates to "boss" and "ruler," NOT just someone who takes the lead in teaching a child about the Christian faith.]

The local church has a supplemental role in this process, e.g. teens are to be listening to and applying preaching and teaching like any other church member and are to be equipped for the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4) like any other church member, but the parents role is primary and shouldn’t be abdicated or delegated to anyone else (pastor, youth group leader, children’s ministry).

Steve: How does this shape practically the way that your church operates?

Mickey: Several ways…

We have what I believe is an excellent children’s ministry. Our youth ministry is Parent/Youth - all meetings and activities are attended by both.  We have a foundations course for parenting that we require each member to take (I am currently working on a course for parenting teens) - we see one of our primary roles as training parents. We have children 12 and above attend small group meetings with their parents.

Steve: Many senior pastors across the country feel that parents will not embrace this God-given role as primary disciplers and therefore have given up on it being a reality. What would you say to those pastors?  [Kris says:  This question feels like a convenient set-up for Mr. Connolly to plug SGM's parent-controlled approach to youth ministry.  I cannot imagine that "many senior pastors" honestly believe that parents have given up their "God-given role as primary disciplers."  I don't buy it, not for a moment.  Maybe SOME church-going parents have a more uninvolved, laissez faire attitude toward parenting, but the majority of Christian moms and dads still see themselves as fully responsible for nurturing their teens and have no desire to abdicate this responsibility.  Most Christian parents I know expend a lot of time and effort taking their teens to church youth events.  Matter of fact, most of these parents see this as something they're doing in their role of "discipler."

Attending a traditional youth group and being "discipled" by one's parents are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE ACTIVITIES!  One can be involved in a "regular" youth program, away from one's parents for a couple of hours per week, and still be actively discipled by one's parents!

I find it so intriguing how SGM does this - they set up a false crisis with statements like, "Parents have given up on their role as primary disciplers of their children."  And then they proceed to offer up their special SGM solution (parent-controlled youth ministry).  Yet the original statement is simply NOT TRUE, not for the majority of Christian parents out there!]

Mickey: I understand the challenge here and sympathize but…

1. We have to start with the scriptures not the difficulties and scripture is abundantly clear that this is the parents’ responsibility.

2. It may be a process, but I would challenge those senior pastors to develop biblical convictions [Kris says:  Ah, the loaded language.  What he really means when he says "biblical convictions" here is, "the convictions that SGM has developed about this subject."] in this regard and then begin to plan how to envision, motivate and equip parents to fulfill this role. I think it is particularly important for parents to understand that God is going to give them abundant grace to do what He has called them to do.

3. I think it is also important that pastors help parents to see the heart motivations behind their lack of involvement and faith in this area. Paul Tripp’s book Age of Opportunity (P&R) has two excellent chapters (1-2) on this topic. Where there are sinful motivations, then help parents to repent and make appropriate changes. Changes that simply focus on behavior will never be lasting; only a changed heart will result in lasting fruit.

Steve: How do you feel the parents in your congregation are responding to this message?

Mickey: I wish you could interview our parents to hear their testimonies. They are overwhelmingly positive. Parents love this type of ministry. It is not without challenges and resistance from their kids but that is not surprising given that both parents and teens are sinners.  [Kris says:  Since when is a teenager's NORMAL DEVELOPMENTAL DESIRE for a little bit of independence and space automatically the evidence of sin?  Since when is it "sinful" or wrong to want to spend an hour or two per week AWAY from one's parents at a Christian youth group, learning from some other mature Christian (such as a youth pastor)?  I was exceedingly blessed by different youth ministries when I was growing up.  How could the desire for those things automatically be wrong?  Where does the Bible say this?  (The truth is, the BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS!)  This is, yet again, something that SGM has extrapolated from cherry-picked Bible passages.

For instance, SGM completely ignores the instance in the Bible, one of the few specific anecdotes from Jesus' own youth, where he ditches Mary and Joseph and hangs out in the temple.  If one uses SGM logic - that all desires for spiritual experiences independent of one's parents are sinful - then they'd be forced to conclude that even Jesus Himself sinned! ] But, at the end of the day, the fruit in their relationship with their teens and the fruit in their children’s lives are what every parent longs to have. And it is my experience that the stronger the relationship between the parent and teen-aged child, the easier it will be to weather and walk through the inevitable storms that come with raising children. Relationship and involvement are key.

Steve: It is tough to become a pastor at a SG church. Can you share the process and the theology behind this practice?

Mickey: Most of the pastors in SG churches are raised up from within, either having grown up in the church or having come and attended for a while. This gives us the opportunity both to observe and help cultivate character and to give opportunities to serve in ways that test gift and calling. (Character is the number one qualification for ministry and gift/calling aren’t obtained through education but grace. Education equips- it doesn’t gift) 

[Kris says:  I'd like to know how Mr. Connolly defines "character."  I think it's interesting how, from so many stories on this site, we know that in SGMville, "character" is equated with an individual's willingness to submit everything to the leaders in authority over the individual.  Keeping that in mind, the hidden message behind this qualification of "character" for entering SGM's pastorate is actually that a man who wants to be a pastor has to have a long enough history with his SGM authorities so that they can know that he will tow the SGM line and submit to those above him.]

Once we determine that a man has a genuine gift/calling and proven (though not perfect) character and that we have a place for that man to serve, we send them to our pastor’s college. Pastor’s College is a ten month intensive training in doctrine and character.  

[Kris says:  Again with the "character."  How do you train someone in "character," and how does the Pastors' College curriculum train its men in "character"?  What sort of "character"-building exercises do they have these guys engage in?  From what we've gleaned about the mysterious curriculum at the PC, we know that there are guest lecturers, some regular courses for practical pastoral knowledge, some study of Greek and Hebrew and sermon preparation, and then a WHOLE LOT OF FOCUS on the discipleship relationships that the PC powers-that-be set up for each pastoral candidate and his wife.

Someone - I can no longer remember who it was - talked about going through intense sessions with their pastor and his wife, in preparation for attending the PC.  They were expected to share EVERYTHING about themselves and their marriage, all their most minute flaws and sins.  This training continues while in the PC.  Another source who is very much on the inside of SGM has related how each pastoral candidate, along with his wife, is paired up with a CLC pastor and wife and is put through more intense "mentoring" just like that.  By the time they are done at PC, there is NOTHING that the candidate and his wife would have been able to keep hidden.  They are completely and thoroughly submitted to their leaders.  They are broken.

At the end of PC, we usually bring the guy back to the sending church (though at times we may have them go to another church where there is a greater need - always with the guy being in faith for this) to serve an internship. At the end of this proving time we would ordain them as a pastor.

The above is the norm; however there are times when we go outside the box.

Steve: Share with us this practice has helped your churches understanding of what a pastor is?

Mickey: I think the most important elements are the emphasis that all ministry and particularly pastoral ministry is character based.  [Kris says:  Not to beat a dead horse, but WHO GETS TO DEFINE WHAT CHARACTER MEANS, and how?  Who gets to decide and judge who has "character" and who does not?] The other important element is that calling should be more than just an individual’s subjective sense but should be something that is confirmed and proven in the context of a local church.

Steve: Many guys I meet feel they can’t minister to families because they are serving in churches that must produce numbers (attendance and baptisms). What is the main hope you have for your church body?

[Kris says:  Here we go again, with a very odd leading question that contains a false statement, an assumption that simply is not true.  Either this Steve guy's experiences have been vastly different than mine, or he's making something up in order to give Mr. Connolly a platform to once again expound upon SGM's particular approach. 

I have NEVER HEARD OF a church - especially not a numbers-conscious "seeker friendly" church - that feels they "can't minister to families" because they're worried about attendance.  If anything, the truth is the exact opposite.  Seeker-friendly churches (churches that are interested in increasing their attendance numbers) have discovered (as have the Mormons - just check out their commercials sometime!) that family concerns are a MAJOR reason why people turn to religion.  This is why so many seeker-oriented churches host "divorce recovery" classes, why they pump millions of dollars into building beautiful facilities for their children's ministries, why they have so many Bible studies and classes for parents and married couples.  The marketing gurus found out a long time ago that your average "unchurched Harry" will gravitate toward ministries that emphasize the family.

So either the interviewer has met some very unusual pastors, or else he is spinning his experience to feed Mr. Connolly a convenient question so that he is nicely set up to pontificate about SGM's ideas about family.]

Mickey: I am deeply grieved that this question even needs to be asked…

[Kris says:  Mr. Connolly is right to be grieved, because this is a question that does NOT need to be asked.  It's an artificial, twisted question!]

First, if we take seriously the Biblical qualifications for pastors, his ability to manage his household is of prime importance.

[Kris says:  Ah yes, it's good to plug one of SGM's best "selling points."  It just occurred to me, as I was reading this article, that SGM is quite smart in continually trumpeting how their pastors lead such pretty, scrubbed lives.

While I am not in ANY way trying to put down the absolutely biblical command for a church leader to have his household in order and to live righteously, after awhile this continual harping on "character" and orderly households starts to feel suspiciously like a marketing ploy.

If it IS a marketing ploy, it's a very clever one.  It seems like CJ (or the other SGM powers-that-be) have tapped into a very real concern among your average Christian today.  We've all seen far too many pastors with families that are messed up, pastors who have committed adultery, or who have been bad stewards of God's money, or engaged in any number of sinful lifestyle choices.  SGM is very smart for hammering away at the idea that THEIR pastors have character, THEIR pastors have their families "in order."

This again reminds me of how the Mormons market their church - they focus a great deal of attention on the wholesome, scrubbed image of their people.  By directing SO MUCH attention on their pastors' lives and families, SGM does the exact same thing.]

Second, pastor is a role that God has called a man to within the larger context of being a Christian man. Pastoring can’t define our lives. Our first priority is our relationship with God and care for our own souls. Our second priority is care for our families. Neither can be sacrificed on the altar of pastoral success. I think every pastor must cultivate this conviction and must teach their churches the same. A local church should be encouraging their pastors to attend to their homes (and senior pastors should be insisting that their staffs do the same).

Third, a pastor’s example as a husband and father is one of the most powerful ways he can serve people. Paul instructs Timothy to watch his life and doctrine carefully and by doing so he will save both himself and his hearers. A man’s family life is a critical part of fulfilling this command. (My personal experience and the experience of every man on our staff is that we are regularly thanked and encouraged for the example we provide here - understanding of course that our example is not a perfect one; we remain sinners.)

[Kris says:  Does anyone else join me in seeing how this is likely one of the root causes of the SGM cloning that many have observed?  If pastors go into the pastorate with the idea that their responsibility is to model behavior that is therefore to be imitated, and if they also are indoctrinated with the idea that their own "character" is all about how much they in turn imitate the leaders above them, then it's little wonder that in the end, SGM has such a very culturally-specific concept of what "character" (and consequently the Christian life) look like.  Everybody looks like CJ and Carolyn, and everybody attempts to run his family in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.  And then they slap on the "biblical" label and think they're superior.]

Fourth, I think the question misses a larger point. The success of a pastor is not to be measured primarily in numbers but in the maturity of the people he serves - what kind of people he is “producing” not how many. In fact a focus on numbers is often the seed bed of temptation to compromise the message of the gospel. I tell our pastors here that faithfulness to our calling is all that we can control and that if we will be faithful, God will take care of the fruitfulness.

Steve: If you sat beside a 22 year old man on a plane today who told you he “wanted to become a pastor,” what are a few things that you would encourage him with?

Mickey: I would tell him to do three things. First, find the local church that God wants you to be a part of and commit yourself wholeheartedly.  [Kris says:  Call me cynical, but given Mr. Connolly's concept of what it means to have been a successful SGM parent - where your kids grow up to attend and serve at their "local SGM church" - I can't help but wonder if Mr. Connolly would not feel intense pressure to make sure the hypothetical 22-year-old on the plane would also attend an SGM church!] Two, cultivate your personal relationship with God and your character. Three, begin to serve faithfully and trust God to promote you. (This doesn’t mean that a man can’t express his desire - Paul says it is a good desire - but that he must trust God and the men around him to bring him into his calling.)

And I think I would talk to him about the all importance of humility. Get his address and send him a copy of CJ Mahaney’s book Humility: True Greatness (Multnomah).  [Kris says:  Oh, HUGE shock here!  Give him a Mahaney book!  Please help me, stewardess, I can't find my airsick bag!] And, I would have him read Mark 10:35-45 [Kris says:  Note how Mahaney came first and the Bible came as a second thought] and meditate on it every day because here Jesus both instructs and models what true Biblical leadership is all about.  [Kris says:  Jesus both instructs and models...but read Mahaney first!]

*******END OF INTERVIEW*******

Kris here again:

I hope everyone understands that I do believe that Mr. Connolly DOES say a lot of good stuff in this interview.  That’s the problem across the board with the Sovereign Grace approach to Christianity - there IS so much “good stuff” to be had.  If there weren’t, then we all wouldn’t have been attracted to our SGM churches to begin with.

But as Jesus says, “It only takes a little leaven…”

More on SGM’s “Perfect Storm”


Reader “Concerned” posted the following comment, which I thought was so excellent that I wanted it to get the attention it deserves, rather than be buried under 214 other remarks:

My personal opinion - It seems the chameleon, Sovereign Grace, finds whatever is useful in envagelicalism that fits their overall strategy of having an empire the leaders can ultimately control and profit from. I’ve always wondered why SGM seemed to always be in a state of flux and why the hodge-podge of viewpoints and beliefs?

It is the perfect “spiritual storm” for us sheep who end up abused and battered as a result, and the perfect masterpiece for them: Calvinism which allows for the doctrine of indwelling sin to go unchecked for the most part, charismatic to allow for prophetic words and other “giftings” to be used as forms of manipulation and to spice up the “deadness” that inevitably results from the legalism, homeschooling and in some cases “colonization” to encourage legalism and isolation which in turn enables leaders to better control you, and finally, a non-congregational form of church government to ensure the sheep can’t/don’t think for themselves.  Everything seems to point to the ultimate goal: power by the shepherds to control the sheep.

I don’t see any other denomination or ministry with quite this mix, but what do I know…I’m just a battered sheep limping back to the Real Shepherd.

People suspect “cult” because they don’t like holiness?


From a comment left by longtime reader Ellie:

…and then there are some who think that only unbelievers and immature Christians would criticize Sovereign Grace Ministries. 

This can only be found, at this time, on google cache.  [Kris says:  Ellie included the link at the end of her comment, but for those of you who are already curious, here's where she found this.]  Apparently some don’t believe that there should be ANY criticism of SGM allowed to remain and just try to erase it all.

Cornerstone Church - Knoxville Cult?
Filed under: CCK, Church, Religion, Theology by SVD

You never know what you are going to find when you search the Keywords on your Google Analytics page, but I was a little surprised to find the phrase “Cornerstone Church Knoxville Cult” not once but several times in KTOWN’s keyword cache.

My first reaction was, “Ha. That’s funny.”

But then it struck me, that for some reason or reasons, this is exactly what people think or have heard about that church. You see, when people punch in words into a search engine, they are usually very efficient with their word choices. That’s the whole point of keywords and search engine optimization (SEO).

But back to the “cult”. I started thinking, “Why would some folks associate this church with a cult-like status?”

Then it hit me…

1 Corinthians 1:27-28

But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,

That church seems foolish to people…probably even other Christians. But why?

You could chalk it up to theological differences and debate whether that church is practicing certain doctrines in a certain way, but that’s pretty typical with any various denominations. And all that info is available on their website (see Statement of Faith). No secrecy there.

I mean as an evangelical Christian myself and a member of Cornerstone, I have vastly different doctrinal opinions of say… the Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, or even the Church of God…but I would label these different denominations…just that…denominations….not cults.

So why would “cult” show up in the keywords. Most likely it’s what these people have heard and seen about the lives of the church members, not so much the specifics of the doctrine…and here is a list of the things my family loves about the church, that when the non-Christian or even worldly Christian encounter may make them think…”Oh, that’s a cult.”

1. They don’t have a youth group. The parents of the youths actually lead them in different group activities. Parental involvement. It used to be called “Family Time.”

2. Large families. Four or more children in a family is considered nothing unusual.

3. Stay at home moms. Lots of these. And we are talking about college educated, highly skilled stay at home moms.

4. The discouragement of dating and the encouragement of courtship. This one really freaks people out.

5. The practice of church discipline. It’s in the Bible and Cornerstone does not ignore it.

6. The “near mandate” of a husband to romantically pursue and serve his wife. The only dating that the church encourages is within the bonds of marriage…a husband “dating” his wife, and believe me it is one of the best ways to protect and serve your marriage.

7. College students that are selflessly serving the church. VFC is different from the most student